Best-selling journalist Antony Loewenstein trav­els across Afghanistan, Pakistan, Haiti, Papua New Guinea, the United States, Britain, Greece, and Australia to witness the reality of disaster capitalism. He discovers how companies such as G4S, Serco, and Halliburton cash in on or­ganized misery in a hidden world of privatized detention centers, militarized private security, aid profiteering, and destructive mining.

Disaster has become big business. Talking to immigrants stuck in limbo in Britain or visiting immigration centers in America, Loewenstein maps the secret networks formed to help cor­porations bleed what profits they can from economic crisis. He debates with Western contractors in Afghanistan, meets the locals in post-earthquake Haiti, and in Greece finds a country at the mercy of vulture profiteers. In Papua New Guinea, he sees a local commu­nity forced to rebel against predatory resource companies and NGOs.

What emerges through Loewenstein’s re­porting is a dark history of multinational corpo­rations that, with the aid of media and political elites, have grown more powerful than national governments. In the twenty-first century, the vulnerable have become the world’s most valu­able commodity. Disaster Capitalism is published by Verso in 2015 and in paperback in January 2017.

Profits_of_doom_cover_350Vulture capitalism has seen the corporation become more powerful than the state, and yet its work is often done by stealth, supported by political and media elites. The result is privatised wars and outsourced detention centres, mining companies pillaging precious land in developing countries and struggling nations invaded by NGOs and the corporate dollar. Best-selling journalist Antony Loewenstein travels to Afghanistan, Pakistan, Haiti, Papua New Guinea and across Australia to witness the reality of this largely hidden world of privatised detention centres, outsourced aid, destructive resource wars and militarized private security. Who is involved and why? Can it be stopped? What are the alternatives in a globalised world? Profits of Doom, published in 2013 and released in an updated edition in 2014, challenges the fundamentals of our unsustainable way of life and the money-making imperatives driving it. It is released in an updated edition in 2014.
forgodssakecover Four Australian thinkers come together to ask and answer the big questions, such as: What is the nature of the universe? Doesn't religion cause most of the conflict in the world? And Where do we find hope?   We are introduced to different belief systems – Judaism, Christianity, Islam – and to the argument that atheism, like organised religion, has its own compelling logic. And we gain insight into the life events that led each author to their current position.   Jane Caro flirted briefly with spiritual belief, inspired by 19th century literary heroines such as Elizabeth Gaskell and the Bronte sisters. Antony Loewenstein is proudly culturally, yet unconventionally, Jewish. Simon Smart is firmly and resolutely a Christian, but one who has had some of his most profound spiritual moments while surfing. Rachel Woodlock grew up in the alternative embrace of Baha'i belief but became entranced by its older parent religion, Islam.   Provocative, informative and passionately argued, For God's Sakepublished in 2013, encourages us to accept religious differences, but to also challenge more vigorously the beliefs that create discord.  
After Zionism, published in 2012 and 2013 with co-editor Ahmed Moor, brings together some of the world s leading thinkers on the Middle East question to dissect the century-long conflict between Zionism and the Palestinians, and to explore possible forms of a one-state solution. Time has run out for the two-state solution because of the unending and permanent Jewish colonization of Palestinian land. Although deep mistrust exists on both sides of the conflict, growing numbers of Palestinians and Israelis, Jews and Arabs are working together to forge a different, unified future. Progressive and realist ideas are at last gaining a foothold in the discourse, while those influenced by the colonial era have been discredited or abandoned. Whatever the political solution may be, Palestinian and Israeli lives are intertwined, enmeshed, irrevocably. This daring and timely collection includes essays by Omar Barghouti, Jonathan Cook, Joseph Dana, Jeremiah Haber, Jeff Halper, Ghada Karmi, Antony Loewenstein, Saree Makdisi, John Mearsheimer, Ahmed Moor, Ilan Pappe, Sara Roy and Phil Weiss.
The 2008 financial crisis opened the door for a bold, progressive social movement. But despite widespread revulsion at economic inequity and political opportunism, after the crash very little has changed. Has the Left failed? What agenda should progressives pursue? And what alternatives do they dare to imagine? Left Turn, published by Melbourne University Press in 2012 and co-edited with Jeff Sparrow, is aimed at the many Australians disillusioned with the political process. It includes passionate and challenging contributions by a diverse range of writers, thinkers and politicians, from Larissa Berendht and Christos Tsiolkas to Guy Rundle and Lee Rhiannon. These essays offer perspectives largely excluded from the mainstream. They offer possibilities for resistance and for a renewed struggle for change.
The Blogging Revolution, released by Melbourne University Press in 2008, is a colourful and revelatory account of bloggers around the globe why live and write under repressive regimes - many of them risking their lives in doing so. Antony Loewenstein's travels take him to private parties in Iran and Egypt, internet cafes in Saudi Arabia and Damascus, to the homes of Cuban dissidents and into newspaper offices in Beijing, where he discovers the ways in which the internet is threatening the ruld of governments. Through first-hand investigations, he reveals the complicity of Western multinationals in assisting the restriction of information in these countries and how bloggers are leading the charge for change. The blogging revolution is a superb examination about the nature of repression in the twenty-first century and the power of brave individuals to overcome it. It was released in an updated edition in 2011, post the Arab revolutions, and an updated Indian print version in 2011.
The best-selling book on the Israel/Palestine conflict, My Israel Question - on Jewish identity, the Zionist lobby, reporting from Palestine and future Middle East directions - was released by Melbourne University Press in 2006. A new, updated edition was released in 2007 (and reprinted again in 2008). The book was short-listed for the 2007 NSW Premier's Literary Award. Another fully updated, third edition was published in 2009. It was released in all e-book formats in 2011. An updated and translated edition was published in Arabic in 2012.

That damn “democracy”

While the Bush administration, thankfully, calls for greater international intervention in Darfur – despite CIA dealings with the odious Sudanese regime – The American Prospect discovers a problem:

But before we heap hosannas on the Bush administration for its newfound resolve, let’s wait until the Security Council comes out with a list of Sudanese individuals who are set to be placed under sanction for their role in the genocide. For that moment will be the real test of the Bush administration’s determination to prevent the further destruction of Darfur and to hold accountable those guilty of plotting and carrying out the genocide.

The Prospect has obtained a confidential annex to a January 30th Security Council report that identifies the 17 Sudanese individuals whom a panel of U.N. experts concluded were most responsible for war crimes and impeding the peace process. The panel recommends that the council place these men under targeted sanction, that they be banned from international travel, and that their foreign assets be frozen. In addition to the 17, five others are cited as possible future targets for sanctions, including Sudan’s President Omar al-Bashir and the President of Chad, Idriss Deby.

The men identified in the annex are the worst of the worst war criminals in a conflict that has claimed hundreds of thousands of civilian lives. And by far the most prominent name of the 17 recommended for immediate sanction is Salah Abdala Gosh.

You may not know that name, but the Central Intelligence Agency certainly does, and Langley won’t be thrilled if he is placed under an international travel ban. He is the director of Sudan’s National Security and Intelligence Services. And when Osama bin Laden found haven in Sudan from 1990 to 1996, Gosh was his personal government minder. Last year, Ken Silverstein of the Los Angeles Times detailed the extensive counterintelligence cooperation between Gosh and the CIA, and reported that the CIA even flew Gosh to CIA headquarters on a private jet to swap trade secrets.

But will the US do? Stay tuned.

Meanwhile, the US is threatening to withdraw funding to the Iraqi security services if the newly forming government doesn’t appoint people essentially approved by Washington.

  • Chris

    All countries make mistakes. Some become paralyzed into inaction becuase it can not guess the future. Others, continue to operate, knowing full well that mistakes will again be made, but it is better than sitting back and whining about previous mistakes.

    The genocide in the Sudan must be stopped, regardless of US involvement in the 90's. The UN is not stopping it.

    Are they doing nothing because of the mistakes they previously made? Does nothing for the sudanese child.

  • rhross

    There must be oil in Sudan. The US only ever gets involved if it perceives an interest. The US has never cared about the plight of Africans or anyone.

    The US supported the Angolan rebel leader Jonas Savimbi through decades of bloody and destructive war, because it suited its interests. It then switched sides to the Dos Santos Government because it suited its interests. The US government supports its corporations in paying huge amounts of bribes to African governments in order to secure oil. Angola by the way now supplies some 11 percent of American oil so the fact that the country was devastated by 25 years of civil war with millions dead, millions maimed and much of the land untouchable because of land mines, doesn't bother the US Government a jot.

    The US record in Africa, like South America, is so interventionist, meddlesome and destructive …. including CIA planned assassinations of African leaders who did not 'suit' US interests, even when they wanted democratic systems, makes it hard for me to believe there is anything other than self interest at work in the US position on Sudan.

    They must have oil, or oil sands like Canada. The Canadians must be getting ever twitchier given their enormous water resources and now, these absolutely gigantic oil sand reserves which have the yankees literally salivating south of the border.

  • captain

    You know what is really spooky?

    1. Many of the contributors here share the views of David Irving who was jailed for Holocaust denial. I have come up against several contributors who talk about the exaggeration of the Holocaust.

    2. The most recent comments from the Hamas leadership reveal the Hamas agenda. Whilst this agenda is not a surprise to me, what I find utterly disturbing is that Ant, Adamo, Edward and others have an almost 100% concordance with Hamas views. Its like you were reading from the same page.

    Have you all stopped to question how extreme your views have become?

  • Addamo


    You are starting to sound paranoid my friend. Who on the list has any agreement whatsoever with Irving?

    No one I read has claime the Holocasut was exaggerated, but they may well have sai d the Holocasut tragedy has been used innapropriately to shut down debate.

    To say that Ant, myself and Edward are in accord with the Hamas agenda you refer to is a comeplte and utter lie. None of us. Read, "NONE" of us, supportany kind of violence.

    have you stopped to consider that you have not made a single aknowledgement of Israel's illegal activioty and actions agaisnt the Palestinian people? Not once have you aknowledged the illegal settelemtns and acquisition of land, contrary to the geneva Conventions and international law. No. You woudl rather everyone believe the movements like Hamas are roduced out of nothignness for no apparent reasn than to persecute Jews.

    The fact that you are forced to use such predictable straw men arguments, is evidence that you knwo very well how weak your arguments and justifiucations are.

  • captain

    Addamo, its interesting that you speak on behalf of all the others. Its nice to hear that you reject Hamas violence. But the rhetoric is exactly the same. Do you reject all of their charter as well? What other differences in world view do you have with Hamas other than being against the terrorism and violence that it has brought to thousands of non combattants?

    So, just to be clear, is it the case that all contributors here believe that the Holocaust was not exaggerated?

  • Addamo

    I speak on behalf of those who's posts I have read enough of and who have expressed exactly what I have attributed to them on many occasions. Just becasue you were not subscribed to the list at the time does not invalidate those prior comments.

    I reject any ideology that espouses violence, but as I have stated before, rhetoric is not violence. Furthermore, violence without rhetoric is infinitely worse than rhetoric without violence.

    Other than terrorism, and the inflamatory language against Israel, I have no issue with Hamas. In fact, I believe that by entering the political mainstream, Hamas will becom more moderate out of necessity.

    Let's not forget that the deaths Hamas has brough to thousands of non-cambatants is abotu one third of the daths the IDF has brought to non-combatants.

    I am curious what Holocaust denial has to do with this thread, other than an attempt on your part to fiush for morsels wby which you can avoid debating the real issues at hand.

    I have no reason to believe the holcaust was exaggerated, but then again, if the facts are beyond refute, why is it necessary to make Holocuast denial a crime in 7 Erupoean countries?

  • captain

    <a href=" &hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1″ target=”_blank”>Hamas threatening to nuke Israel; Iran enriching uranium; Iran calling for the destruction of Israel; Iran funding Hamas. Real tin-foil hat stuff.

    If only you would not be in such denial of reality!

    Palestinian deaths are entirely the fault of the Palestinians. If they did not hide under the skirts of their women, or surround themselves with children, the collateral damage would be minimal.

    Do you see the way Palestinians cheer about the death of Jewish children? They way they hand out sweets? Did you see the celebration of the 9/11 casulaties?

    The so called intifada has always been a strategic attempt to eradicate Israel. Palestinian casualties have been celebrated by Palestinians as a weapon in a propaganda war for the gullible like yourself. If you haven't noticed the West is more concerned about Palestinian death than they are: they live in a society that celebrates and glorofies death. There is a wealth of their own writings; tv appearances, editorials etc that confirm this.

    Unfortunately, people like yourself get sucked into the true meaning of Palestinian deaths. And the Palestinians themselves understand that Israel palces an entirely different value on the dead. One needs to look no further than the gruesome arithmetic of the bargaining of dead Israeli bodies for live Palestinian terrorists.

  • Addamo


    You reveal once again how little you know and how superficial your knowledge.

    Hamas is going to nuke Israel (who has more than 200 nukes at the ready) with what exactly? The link you sent is a joke.

    Iran may be funding Hamas only because the west is driving Hamas into the arms of Iran by trying to isolate it financially and politically. Fact check Captain. Iran is 100% entitle dot enrich uranium under the NPT, which Israel refuses to sign.

    Who are the extremist here?

    Iran enriching Uranium means absolutely nothing. There is not a pin prick of evidence of nuclear fuel enrichment or weapons proliferation. And if you want a lecture on the subject, I worked as a nuclear engineer for 5 years.

    See. No need for denial when you have facts.

    The collateral damage as you put it, is just a biased and propaganda driven diatribe to hide Israel’s violence and overt aggression. Israel is the only western country to legalize torture, kidnapping and assassination. You talk about collateral damage while ignoring cases like 13 and 9 year old Palestinian girls being shot by IDF sharp shooters.

    In neither case were there terrorists using human shields. It was blatant murder, sanctioned by the Israeli government. The 13 year old girl was filled with 17 rounds of bullets. For what? That’s collateral damage for you.

    You point to Hams celebrating the deaths of Israelis. How many Israeli’s cheered when Goldstein mowed down the Palestinian Arabs? What about the monument that has been built for him? You think this hatred is a one way street?

    Who cares about Palestinians cheering 911. Since when is bad taste a crime, especially when the Us have been Israel’s enablers and protectors for decades? Who has armed Israel so that they can commit the atrocities against Palestinians? Can you blame them?

    The Intifada was not about eradicating Israel. The Palestinian Intifada was basically a nonviolent civilian revolt by the Palestinians. Of course, apologists like yourself will always equate opposition to Israeli policy with the desire to destroy Israel.

    Your statement that Palestinians “live in a society that celebrates and glorifies death” is completely racist and based on ignorance.

    You talk about people like myself being sucked into what you consider to be myth. Well Captain, you have yet to make a single comment about Israel’s illegal occupation of Palestinian land. You

    That the “gruesome arithmetic of the bargaining of dead Israeli bodies for live Palestinian terrorists” exists only because Israel has so many thousand of Palestinians in custody. All of whom are tortured in captivity.

    Israel inflicts collective punishment on a grand scale and uses so called punishment to grab land whenever it sees fit. Ten thousand homes have been demolished for what? Collective punishment, cynical land grabs or both.

    Unfortunately Captain, people like yourself are stuck in a ideological warp where the more wrong you are the more hysterical an incoherent you become.

  • captain

    Its always amazing how you can rationalise away the violent palestinian position as racism. Yes there is racism, but it is not what you would expect.

    How can you continually dismiss what the palestinians themselves say? Iran has always funded Hamas. The association has not suddenly come about because Israel refuses to facilitate and fund a terrorist organisation.

    You talk about the horrifying deaths of palestinian girls as if their deaths alone tell the whole story. Of course this is not the case. The tradgedy of children losing their lives will occur when the gutless and inhumane palestinian gunmen surround themselves with children. This means that even on ocassions when they are not there, there is a lower threshold to engage in what may be perceived to be threatening situations. There is no israeli policy about murdering children, unlike that of Hamas for whom it is intended.

    The numbers that you frequently quote do not tell the whole story. Are you counting the children who were killed wearing bomb vests? or in palestinian booby traps? or surrounded by the terrorists? And how do you factor in all of the thwarted terrorist attacks numerically?

    Neither I nor the Israeli government supported the actions of Baruch Goldstein. He was correctly described as a terrorist. His supporters have been described as terrorists. I agree with that. He was a murderer.

    However, I have not ever heard a willingness or seen any attempt by palestinian leaders and legislators to acknowledge terrorism. This is precisely because they are inseparable from the terrorists. Al Aqsa matyrs brigade is a division of Fatah which was controlled by Arafat. But for some reason, you just can't bring yourself to condemn them because you see the actions as justified based on the propaganda about Israeli brutality.

    Cheering the deaths of Israelis and Americans is more than bad taste. It is apalling that you would minimise this. A culture that supports and applauds these kinds of behaviours is beneath contempt. It amounts to child abuse. Can you agree with that without merely pointing the finger at Israel? Or are you too tightly bound by apologetics to do this?

  • Addamo

    I dismiss what Palestinians themselves say because talk is cheap. Actions speak louder than words, which is a principal Israel lives by. Your obsession with words belie the facts on the ground.

    It is easy and cheap to quote the words fo a few radicals while ignoring the silent majority. Abbas never spoke ill if Israel, yet people like yourself still regard Palestinians as a death cult.

    Three times as many Palestinians were killed in the last Intifada and of that, more Palestinian children were killed than Israeli’s in total.

    Hamas has long been an organization known for it’s efficiency in running public services and care for the Palestinains. That’s what their funding goes towards producing. Israel’s refusal to hand over money that rightly belongs to Palestinians will only strengthen the relationship between Hamas and Iran.
    You dismiss the example of the young Palestinian girls as a mere blip o the radar, yet this is c a common occurrence. Only today, a 10 year old Palestinian boy was a shot with for throwing stones at IDF soldiers. There does not need to be a policy of killing children, when it is done regardless. More collateral damage right?

    Again and again you shirt around the elephant in the room – the fact that Israel is occupying land that it is not legally entitled to. The threshold of violence stems from this very fact which you refuse to aknowledge or even discuss. What is it with you? Is it some ideological blind spot that you are programmed to not hear?

    You made the brazen comment that Palestinians are part of a death cult because they engage in violence or endanger their fellow Palestinians. Well if that is the case, tehn the same can be said for Israel.

    As Shlomo Ben Ami, an ardent Zionest stated, Israel’s only option for security is to hand back Gaza, the West Bank and Jerusalem. So Israel has a choice whether to have security or occupy land and it has chosen to occupy land. Thus endangering their fellow Israelis.

    Does that make Israel death cult too?

    You ask about children wearing bomb vets. How many have done so?

    How many are surrounded by terrorists?

    I respect that you do not supported the actions of Baruch Goldstein, but there are those who do and you would agree that to quote those people as being representative of all of Israel would be dishonest. So why do you not apply this standard both ways?

    Abbas made many attempts to thwart terrorism and certainly denounced it. Unfortunately he was not taken seriously by Israel and as such, the Palestinians were forced to look elsewhere for leadership.

    So to say that Palestinians are inseparable from the terrorists is to say that Israeli’s are inseparable from War Criminals and murderers like Sharon.
    Yes Al Aqsa matyrs brigade are a bad mob, but once again, I ask you what furls their popularity and their recruitment. Three guesses!!!

    Cheering the deaths of Israelis and Americans is more than bad taste.
    What about cheering the deaths of Pelsitnians? Are you teling me that Israeli’s have never cheered the death of Paelstinians? Did Israeli’s not celebrate the of Arafat? Was that condemned as unwarranted?

    “It is apalling that you would minimise this. “A culture that supports and applauds these kinds of behaviours is beneath contempt.”

    Again, your inflammatory language is meaningless. This is not about what or who is beneath contempt, it’s about legality, occupation and violence and Israel is on the wrong side of the score in every regard.

    “It amounts to child abuse.”

    Spare us the meaningless hyperbole. Israelis kills more children than al lthe Israeli’s killed by Palestinians militants. That makes Israel the greater abuser of children by a long shot.

    “Can you agree with that without merely pointing the finger at Israel? Or are you too tightly bound by apologetics to do this?”
    What would you have me agree on?

  • captain

    " A few radicals?" I am quoting the leadership of the organisation that was voted in. I did not do street interviews. These are the facts on the ground.

    The fact that Hamas runs welfare is very similar to what many illegal organisations do. The mafia included. The fact that there is a benevolent facade does not diminish the over terrorist objectives.

    Addamo, you seem to have forgotten how Israel came to be in Judea, Samaria and Gaza. It followed wars of aggression by its neighbours. Not many countries have had to fight all of its neighbours almost all of the time in order to have a peaceful existence. Do you think that the Jordanian and Egyptian aggression was about the palestinians? Were the palestinians 'occupied' when they were under Egyptian and Jordanian control? And where were they before 1948? Were they ever not "occupied"?

    Under interntation law, Israel is not acting illegally. It remains bound by the UN formula of land for peace which it did with Egypt. Unfortunately there is no palestinian partener for peace given their blood-thirsty objectives. I am sorry if you find the truth so offensive.

    Unfortunately your two dimensional analysis of childhood death does not permit you to see who is at fault for both Israeli and palestinian deaths.

  • Addamo

    Your insistence that no matter what Hamas says, it’s intentions are malevolent is evidence your bias is based on blind ideology. You are happy to quote their aggressive rhetoric as being factual, but dismiss their more peaceful statements as not being trustworthy.

    Where do you guys learn to pick cherries like that?

    Judea, Sasamira and Gaza did not and do not belong to Israel. Never have. The UN designated borders which are specific and ISrael has not stuck to those borders.

    The 1967 war was started by Israel, not it’s neighbors. You can argue all you like that it's neighbors were about to attack but he Israel was the aggressor. They even tried to sick the USS Liberty because they were trying to prevent the US getting wind of their plans to commence the attack.

    And forget the ad hominems about Palestinians not having a legitimate home land. Weren’t the Jews homeless for 2000 years and yet still came back to claim Israel and their ancestral territory?

    Under international law Israel is completely acting illegally. How can you and your fellow traveler Chris insist otherwise when the international court and the UN have stated this unequivocally? Are you somehow plugged into judges and lawmakers of higher standing that know something the world and international community does not?

    That's the international consensus is absolute. You see it voted on every year in the United Nations. The votes typically something like 160 nations on one side, the United States, Israel and Naru, Palau, Tuvalu, Micronesia and the Marshall Islands on the other side. That's it.

    There are no fewer than 64 Un resolutions against Israel all relating to illegal occupation. Sorry to break the news to you, but that’s the reality.

    What’s your source? That Israel insists otherwise? Maybe you would suggest Al Capone should have been allowed to his own tax returns also.

    Israel has always insisted it had no partner for peace. That’s the way Israel likes it. As I mentioned before, in 1981, Israel was under international pressure to reach a diplomatic settlement in the Israel-Palestine conflict. Instead, they decide to invade Lebanon in order to crush the P.L.O., because the P.L.O. was on record supporting a two-state settlement. Avner Yaniv, said in his book, Dilemmas of Security, “The main problem for Israel was the P.L.O.'s peace offensive. They wanted a two-state settlement. Israel did not.” And so Israel decides to crush the P.L.O. in Lebanon. It successfully did so. So you see Captain. Israel never has wanted a partner for peace and when one ahs been available, they have sought to eliminate it.

    The reality of the Camp David, Oslo and Tabba agreements prove otherwise.
    Read he debate between Shlomo Ben Amin and Allan Filkenstein to educate yourself. Ben Amin has stated that the land does not belong to Israel and that Israel can only obtain legitimacy through the return of these territories.

    Facts are tough things to digest, but give yourself time.

    So I guess it’s back to your Zionism 101 rule book of how to argue that black is white and that up is down.

  • Addamo

    This comment from Harrez speaks volumes and just goes to show how much inflated hyperbole fills your argument Captain:

    "At this stage Hamas is acting more responsibly than the Israeli government. Its representatives speak of a new era, of a transition from terror to politics, of continued opposition to occupation via other means, and of aspirations to a long-term hudna (cease-fire)."

    That really sounds like they are really preapering to destroy Israel doesn't it?

  • Chris

    "They even tried to sick the USS Liberty because they were trying to prevent the US getting wind of their plans to commence the attack."

    The Six Day War started June 5, 1967. The Liberty was attacked June 8, 1967. It appears you are making things up to bolster a weak position. All it does is show that you can not be trusted to rely on actual facts and I think it would make most here doubt anything you claim from now on.

    And the Jews were not homeless for 2000 years. From the exile in 135 CE to the recreation of Israel was 1813 years. It was only 1745 years before the start of purchasing the land form absentee arab landlords.

    A newspapers opinion piece regarding Hamas is not a statement of fact.

  • Addamo

    Nice try Chrisn,

    I stand corrected abotu the dates. You are right.

    In the end, the attack on the USS Liberty was a deliberate act. whether it was intended to deny the USS Liberty access to Israeli intelligence or frame Egypt to escalate the war, it realy doesn't matter in the end does it? It was an act of calculated murder gainst Israel's closest ally.

    Seems liek a very good reaon why real peope should not neceasarily admire Israel.

    Anyone who says real people admire Israel is defintiely someone who spends most of their time in a padded cell, so I wouldn't go around deciding who's claims are realiable or otherwise.

    and I must appologise about rounding up the number of year the jews were in limbo by a few hundred years. Does it really make any difference in the end?

    Absenstee Arab Landlords? I seem to recall that there were an abundance of tennents still in residene at the time.

    So what you are saying is that posession is 9 tenths of the law? No wonder you insist the world court has no jurisdictino over Israel. There are prpbabyl no international laws pertaining to the law of the jungle.

    The newspaper quoted was an Isaeli paper, so it is more pointed than any other. No, quotes are not statments of fact. Neither are selective quotes that paint Hamas as an organisation hell bent on the destructino of Israel with no regard for it;s own people.

  • Chris

    Please leave you petty insults at home.

    Your opinion concerning the regretful Liberty incident has been refuted by every official investigation and the transcripts of the Israeli personal recently released. There is no need to discuss your belief in rumors.

    Tennants are renters. They did not own the land. The owner of private land has every right to end leasing agreements in a legal manner. And the legal right to sell such land to whomever he desires.

  • Addamo

    i will gladly leave my petty insults at home if you leave your rascism at home also. Do you stil lbelieve that real people do not admire Paelstinians? What a laugh.

    Actually the Liberty case is far from being a closed case and survivors from that attack are puschign for the case to be re-opened and properly investigated. Even an IDF pilot who took part in the excercise has come forward and stated that the Israeli air Force knew what they were shooting at and were told to attack the USS Liberty. Yuor insistence on hanging your case on an obvious white wash betrays your bias.

    Your argument about the ownership of the land is refuted by every international legal finding that has investigated it. Israel never bought the land. It stole it.

  • Chris

    Again, leave your petty insults at home. Your opinion of my attitude gives you no freedom to make insulting comments designed to be inflamatory.

    The Liberty case has been opened and closed several times, each time admitting that it was a horrible incident in which there was no intent to harm an American vessel. You may believe any rumor you wish. All official inquiries and investigations have laid those rumors meaningless.

    Few actual legal International findings have shown the land to be not in dispute. Most of those admit that there is no other nation, other than Israel, which may claim the land. Israel itself had no need to buy the land. the Jews and Jewish organizations which settled the land bought from the absentee arab landlords. Neither the Ottoman's nor the British required Israel to pay for state lands.

    I'm apologize for letting you be confused regarding which entity leaglly purchased land from the arabs who owned it.

  • Addamo

    Hang on Chris,

    You are changing your story. Did israel buy the land onr did they claim it as their own or did they relocate and kill the prople living there?

    The fact that the Liberty case has been opened and closed several times means nothing. In none of the investigations were the testimony of the survivors consiudered. The testimony of the forcmer israeli pilot who came forth to say that Israel attacked Liberty on purpose was never investigated.

    The survivors stated that the Iraeli poanes circled the USS Liberty for hours and even made eye contact with the pilots before tehy planes returned to attack the ship. Israes maintians that it did not see the US flag or that they confuse dthe ship with an Egyptian ship.

    US intelligence intercepted the conversations between the pilots and therir israeli command, but those tapes remained classified for a very good reason.

  • Chris

    I merely reffered to the Jews who purchased the land as "Israel". Israel itself purchased nothing and was not required to. Transjordan did not purchase any land to form their state. Neither did any other political entity in the middle east.

    Most would believe that opening and closing cases with the same finding each and every time would mean something. Those who do not normally find that they enjoy the rumors more than the facts.

    The latest declassified tapes prove the pilots did not know they were attacking an American ship.

  • Addamo

    Please point to a link of the dseclassified tapes.

    AFAIK, the NSA tapes that recorded the conversations remain classified. and the testimony of the israeli pilot who came forward has not been refuted by Israel.

    Whit ewahses are designed to sweet a subject under the table. There was also an investigation into the false intelligent which lead to war that Bush's supporters insist let's his administration off the hook, but most free thinking people know that the Bush adminstration most certainly did lie us into the iraq war.

    Israel continue to occupay land that it has no right to. That it lays claim to this land is irrelevant. The artimstice lines and the borers fromo 1948 are very clear and only in dispute as far as Israel iand the Us is concerned. The rest of the world is in agreement that Israel is in violation of International Law and the Balfour agreement.

  • Chris
    What testimony of what pilot has not been refuted?

    What the bush administration may or may not have done has nothing to do with this discussion.

    The armistice lines were temporary borders. They no longer exist as borders but as lines from which Israel will deviate in negotiating final borders. That is by UN resolution and fully supported by International Law.

    Israel's claims are fully relevant. It is the only nation involved. There is no other nation with any claims other than Syria to the north. Again, those claims willbe settled when Syria agrees to come to the table without preset conditions.

  • Addamo

    Just checked your source Chris and it is far from conclusive. First par
    paragraph says that the transcript deals solely with the aftermath of the attack. Thanks anyway.

    The armistice lines were only temporary borders as far as Israeli plans for expansion were concerned. Israel never had rights to enter Gaza, the West bank or Jerusalem.

    All you are doign is repeating Israeli Zionist propaganda.

    As Norman Filkenstein has stated, Israel's claims have nothing to do with what they are legally entitled to, but what they desire to have. adopting the position that Palestine does not represent a nation and therefore has no claim s is just bigoted and racist and explains why Israel has suppressed any aspirations for an independent state on the part of Palestine.

  • Chris

    They were very conclusive. And they were the transcripts. You have not mentioned who this pilot was that tells a different story that israel has not refuted.

    As the other nations involved refused to initiate peace treaty talks, there was nothing Israel could do about the lines.

    As they were fighting a defensive war in 1967, they had every right to enter those areas to engage the enemy. And Jordan and Egypt had no legal right to be in those regions.

    Norman Finklestein is not an expert in the field. Like you, he is a layman with an opinion.

    Nothing here has been stated about the Palestinian's claim being legitimate or illegitimate, just that they are not a nation and have never been a nation.

  • Addamo

    The 1967 war was only defensive according to israel. after all, israel is the country that pre-meptively struck. Did it not?

    You suggestion that Israel had everyt righ to enter those terriroties to engage the enemy makes sense, but the war ended after 6 days. Isrel has never pulled back from those territories, so your point is entirely moot.Norman Filkenstain is one of the worlds most repsected intellects on teh issue and his debate with Shlomo Ben Ami proves that he knows as much abot he subject as anyone. His dissection of the the book on eh subject of Israel by Allan Dershowitz is internationalyl acclaimed and recognised.

    Palestines clai to the land is protected under the geneva Conventions, especialyl article 49.

    There really is no case for Israel with regard to the occupied territories here Chris so I don't knwo why you insist on arguing from a position of such weakness.

  • Addamo

    The attack on 'Liberty' was fading into obscurity until intelligence expert James Bamford came out with Body of Secrets, his latest book about the National Security Agency. In a stunning revelation, Bamford writes that unknown to Israel, a US Navy EC-121 intelligence aircraft was flying high overhead the 'Liberty,' electronically recorded the attack. The US aircraft crew provides evidence that the Israeli pilots knew full well that they were attacking a US Navy ship flying the American flag.

    The Assault on the USS Liberty Still Covered Up After 26 Years

    USS Liberty – Israeli Pilot Speaks Up

    According to this senior Israeli lead pilot, he recognized the Liberty as American immediately, so informed his headquarters, and was told to ignore the American flag and continue his attack. He refused to do so and returned to base, where he was arrested.

    Cover-Up Alleged in Probe of USS Liberty

  • Chris

    The pilot with no name? This is a source? I didn't see anything about a " US Navy EC-121 intelligence aircraft was flying high overhead the ‘Liberty,’ electronically recorded the attack." Nor did I see a transcript. Nor was there any proof of any of the stories you are using.

    Pretty much a tall tale as you have relayed it.

    The best is the pilot with no name. I sure believed him.

  • Addamo

    Did you read the links I sent you? He was arrested when he landed for not following orders to bomb a US navy vessel.

    What was that you said about real peopel admiring Israel?

    The transcript from the EC-121 will never be seen because it is classified. Is it that hard for oyu to fathon that the reason the one you linked to was declassified was becasue it was not incriminating?

    Former Intelligence agents rarely tell tall tales Chris because they can too easily be refuted. Have you read the Beamford's book, Body of Secrets, or are you just guessing to it's contents?

    I will most certainly be reading it when I have the chance.

    I am not surprised you choose not to believe these arguments. It would turn your world upside down to aknowledge that this is how ruthlessly Israel has been in pursuit of it's interests. You are clutching at straws.

    Whether it was the USS Liberty or the Lavon Affair (aka Suzanna Project), or the israeli spy scandals that have rocked the US, Israel has long exhibited a willingness to even step all over it's main benefactor in persuti if it's own interests – and often taking this to extremes.

  • Chris

    The pilot with no name was arrested. But no one knows who he is. And this is believable.

    The other evidence will also never be seen, and this is believable.

    Evidence that no one can see and a witness no one can know. And this is your proof. Something about clutching at straws?

    Other than the Lavon affair, which was in Egypt and 50 years ago, the others were all smoke and mirrors. Not proof of anything. To use an event that occured 50 years ago is definately clutching at straws.

  • Addamo

    I see, so the fact that I cannto produce classified documents for you menas I have no case. You're a genius.

    Smoke an mirrors? Can you say Pollard? Can you say AIPAC? Can yo usay phoney Mossad agents posing as al Qaeda cells in Paelstine?

    Tell me when to stop.

  • orang

    My youngest kid, when confronted with the truth will slap his hands across his eyes and say I don't see it. He thinks he's being cute. We've decided to ignore him when he gets like this. What's the point, it just encourages him.

  • Chris

    You have produced absolutely nothing but rumors. You have no case. And keep your petty insults at home.

    What your youngest child does is merely a reflection of his parent. Nothing more, nothing less.

  • orang

    Ibrahim, is this you?