Robert Fisk, The Independent, July 24:
They are in the schools, in empty hospitals, in halls and mosques and in the streets. The Shia Muslim refugees of southern Lebanon, driven from their homes by the Israelis, are arriving in Sidon by the thousand, cared for by Sunni Muslims and then sent north to join the 600,000 displaced Lebanese in Beirut. More than 34,000 have passed through here in the past four days alone, a tide of misery and anger. It will take years to heal their wounds, and billions of dollars to repair their damaged property.
And who can blame them for their flight? For the second time in eight days, the Israelis committed a war crime yesterday. They ordered the villagers of Taire, near the border, to leave their homes and then – as their convoy of cars and minibuses obediently trailed northwards – the Israeli air force fired a missile into the rear minibus, killing three refugees and seriously wounding 13 other civilians. The rocket that killed them is believed to have been a Hellfire missile made by Lockheed Martin in Florida.
Fisk’s recent diary of life in Beirut is well worth reading.
Hezbollah proud of civilian deaths. Nice.
Its kind of funny the way Fisk doesn’t report on the name and location of the maker of the 2000 missiles that have been fired into northern Israel
Simply becasue these were hardly made to order the way Israel’s are from Lockheed Martin. Most of these rockets are Soviet era weapons, probably second or even third hand.
Hezbollhas has apparently lost only 11 of it’s members, while Israel, with all it’s high texh F-16’s and tanks and helicopters, has lost 20.
Pretty clumsy lot those IDF guys.
You are being evasive addamo. I posted a quote from your friend Nasrallah which details their premeditated kidnapping plans of the Israeli soldiers and now a UN quote explaining for all to see why there are high civilian casualties. And it has been what I have been saying all along.
These gutless fighters hide behind their women and children and then in a stage managed fashion hold up the remains for Reuters photographers. This is the real war crime.
Surely this is worthy of condemnation??!
every report on tv has carried the name ‘katyusha’ rockets,
i dont think you need robert fisk to tell you where they come from captain,
so they are russian, so what, they come from syria, so what?
http://www.caat.org.uk/issues/israel.php
any problems with israel being one of the biggest arms dealers in the world captain?
Yes, exactly so what. Fist regularly uses the origins of the missiles to apply political pressure. But he does it in an asymmetrical fashion.
Indeed they are worhty of condemnatino, but the descision to bomb civilian targets radomly is also to be condemned is it not?
i think the point for fisk, is that it is assymetrical to start with since every report links hezbollah to iran and syria through arms supplies,
so fisk is saying well lets even it up and write where all the israeli weapons come from
Yes, the Hezbollah bombing of random civilian targets is to be condemned. This is to be contrasted to the warnings that Israel have given to Lebanese civilians.
Captain – when the roads are bombed, you have children and the elderly to transport, everybody is hysterical with fear, you think that warnings to leave your home because it is about to be bombed, is an act of kindness? Hizballah’s rocket attacks and Israel’s rocket attacks are equally bad, morally. Israel’s attacks are much worse in terms of human suffering.
No one mentioned acts of kindness.
War is not kind. Hezbollah have no regard at all for the Lebanese. They are obsesses with eradicating Israel. It is terrible that people are suffering and terrible too that infrastructure had to be destroyed in order to limit the effectiveness of Hezbollah.
I don’t know how you can compare human suffering and in many ways it is not the point anyway. Hezbollah started the rocket attacks and any sovereign nation would respond. What would you suggest, dropping flowers and chocolates and hoping for the best?
Perhaps if Hezbollah didn’t fight behind their women and children and were less cowardly there would be fewer casualties. However as the UN observed, this is their stated strategy.
Israel created Hezbollah and Hamas with its brutal occupations, making them equally complicit in the deaths of Israeli citizens.
I’m presuming that Captain is going to apologise for the Israeli’s attack on civilian mini buses that were fleeing as per the notice so kindly given by the IDF.
Israel has already lost this war because they’re losing the hearts and minds of the public.
No longer are the public going to see the Israeli state as the pathetic victim they make themselves out to be. Israel’s brutal actions will further expose the fact that they are a brutal military regime that won’t rest until they annihilate their neighbours – something that they’ve claimed has been happening to themselves!
Anyone who attended Robert Fisk’s recent lecture series in Australia would have seen the video evidence he presented of IDF war crimes. As well, he showed footage of the immediate aftermath of the massacre at Sabra and Shatila, for which the comatose one was never indicted as a war criminal.
Fisk and his kind are a unique breed of journalist who confront death and its perpetrators on a regular basis. I have no doubt the IDF would prefer that he not be where he is but, so far, they have other priorities. For them and their backers, each additional day of conflict is revealing yet more evidence of sickening war crimes that expose their outright contempt for other cultures.
as a kind of summary comment, which i am without doubt not qualified to do,
i judge israels actions of the last month to be a total disaster for its own peaceful existence,
the world opinion has never been so unified against israeli actions, people who have been reluctant to comment are coming out of the woodwork left right and centre,
there is a definate feeling that its time for people to talk about the truth of what is going on and where its leading,
and it all looks bad for israel,
the defenders look increasingly moronic and ridiculous in a flood of questioning and commentary that almost everywhere is angled against the israeli state actions
There’s a complex formulae that the IDF uses to calculate the location of its precision strikes.
Is that the same world opinion that has dominated the UN and led to over half of its resolutions being against Israel since its inception? You mean that world opinion? Or do you mean the world opinion that allowed 6 million Jews to be murdered before Israel was in existence? Or perhaps you mean the world opinion that allowed hundreds of thousands of Jews to be forcibly removed from Arab countries or the Jews that were subject to pogroms in Eastern Europe?
For Israel it has always been about survival, it is not a popularity contest.
Perhaps smiths you could tell us when Israel did have a peaceful existence. Was it when the Olso accords were taking place when Israel built up palestinian infrastructure and handed control to the PA of most of the pal territory? Or was it in 48 when Israel was declared a state, no? what about 67, 73, 82?? Just tell me when Israel neighbours endorsed one policy or another and allowed a peaceful co-existence.
The reality that you don’t want to see is that most of the Arab world is not lifting a finger to support Hezbollah or Hamas. They see it as an unmitigated disaster. Even the UN has moved slowly with its language and actions. No one cares that Hezbollah is getting a pounding. The only tragedy is the civilians who are being killed. This happens in war. And there is no doubt about who started the war and who is hiding behind the skirts of women and children to fire ball bearing loaded missiles at civilian targets at random.
Your fiance is making a very big mistake with you. You have no appreciate of Jewish history.
The best solution for the region and for the world is for Israel to pack up and move to Europe and if they don’t want them (which it seems like the case) then move them to USA. I thinks that’s the best option for the entire world. The more Israel presses for its right to exist in the land which their illegally occupied without the agreement and authorization of Palestinians the more trouble the world will see.
The biggest problem is Israel, the new holocaust is committed by Israel, the war crimes are committed by Israel, and Israel is a state of terror and will remain until they relocate somewhere else. Israel is just trouble and not but trouble.
i knew that was a mistake,
i thought, ‘maybe if i try a personal approach with captain, open up my life a bit rather than just being a name he’ll be a bit more humane’
how silly of me,
now he’ll just end each comment with some indirect insult to my fiancee,
what a sad, pathetic excuse for living
Captain – spare us this “tragedy” spin, please. The events in Lebanon are not a “tragedy” they are the excesses of a state that is unwilling and unable to restrain its military forces. These same forces have a long history of repeated abuses of human rights in the West Bank, in Gaza and, of course, in Lebanon.
Important shocking article
This article here needs to be read, its important and a eye opener. For all the pro-Israel campaigners you should read this shocking article, which I believe hold truth about the present (escalating) conflict. You can find it here.
By what legal authority can the army of one state order the civilians of another sovereign state out of their homes?
Moreover, this is a doctrine that, if adopted, would have some rather uncomfortable outcomes in the future. Imagine Lebanese or Syrian forces, say, turning the tables and saying “the Syrian army has given well-publicized notice to civilians to leave those areas of northern Israel that have been turned into war zones. Those who voluntarily remain behind have become complicit.”
If Hezbollah sent leaflets before firing rockets, does that count?
Wrong, they are obsessed with defending Lebanon from the invasion. Those pathetic rockets don’t stand a chance of destroying anything other than a few apartments.
Start with number Captain.
Ten times the deaths usually means ten times the suffering.
World opinion is overwhelmingly in favor of Israel stopping the bombing.
Since when does a country like Israel, that has spat in the face of 60 UN resolutions, suddenly decide it has the authority to enforce 1559 on Hezbollah? Did Israel seek a resolution to invade Lebanon?
World opinion had nothing to do with Holocaust. Since you believe that giving prior warning is sufficient, let’s remember tat Germany gave the Jews warning to get out of Germany in 1933-1940.
No one believes that Captain. This is about redrawing the region to suit Israel’s goals. Hezbollah are no threat whatsoever to Israel’s existence.
The reality that you don’t want to see is that most of the Arab world is not lifting a finger to support Hezbollah or Hamas.
Arab world? Aren’t you confusing that with the Arab tyrannical leaders who get big chunks of change from the US, and who are teetering on the brink of collapse?
Thanks to guaranteed vetoes from the US.
No. This happens when some launches a war from the air and has no idea what they are aiming at. This happens when you collectively punish a population to get at a few.
You are right, there is no doubt. Israel had this planned over a year ago and were itching to pull the trigger. It started with the invasion of Gaza and the incursion into Lebanon, which produced the Hezbollah attacks.
Ball bearing loaded missiles do not inflict a fraction of the damage that 500lb bombs do.
Adam=Ahmadinejad
smiths, it is you who are supporting a group that would no sooner kill your fiance than look at her. That, I agree, is a sad pathetic way to live.
You are hopeless,
Maybe Smiths shoudl be euqally weary of his fiance’s family? I mean, he’s obviosuly a terrorist sympathiser right?
He is a terrorist sympathiser. He stated “give them hell Hezbollah”. If he marries this woman, the same group will want to kill his wife and children. He is obviously young and naieve: Ant’s focus group demographic.
Are you really that stupid? Did Fisk tell you this?
So they kidnapped Israelis, launched ceaseless missiles and thereby invited invasion. What possible motive would Israel have to do this other to secure its northern border? This is clearly a Syrian initiative to return.
Addummbbooo, do you know the difference between UNGA and UNSC resolutions? When you look it up, come back to us and tell us about the difference between law and huffing and puffing.
Who is iunvading whom Captain? it’s becomming clearer by the day that the whoe kidnapping of IDF soldiers was a lie and used to justify an invasino that was planned before any so called attacks on either side.
http://www.antiwar.com/frank/?articleid=9401
Or do you believe that nooine has the right o resits invasion by Israel?
Again, asnwert the bloody quesrion. By what legal authority can the army of one state order the civilians of another sovereign state out of their homes?
Do you have an answer to this or not???
The Isrelis were caprured on Lebanese soil. They were IDF soldiers.
Even so, Israel is bulding a detentino centre to house captured Lebanese. These will obviously be captured on lebaese soil, so is ISrael kidnapping them also?
For every missile mauched at Israel, Israel has llaucned ten times the reposnse. Did ou not hear that for evey missile, Israel will attack ten buildings?
That is the question is it not, but what does attacking Northern Lebanon have to do with the Southern border?
Bullshit.
Oh yes, they asked to be kidnapped by murderous antisemites.
Come on, tell us your frontal lobes are intact. Israel made no orders at all. The question is therefore completely daft.
Aduumbbbooo, how can you be so certain about the totalitarian regime of Syria. Do you think that there are better human rights in Syria than Israel? Have you been to either country? Who did the Syrian last vote for at their general election? Tell us about the independent news outlets there. Tell us about their pact with Iran. Tell us about their murder of Harari and independent journalists in Lebanon. You are an utter moron.
So the AP is anti-Semtic? You see how fucked up your logic is Captain? Yo insist that the only respetabel source of information is Israel – as though they are somehow impartial to all of this.
As the AFP reported,
The French news site http://www.VoltaireNet.org reiterated the same account on June 18,
The Associated Press departed from the official version as well.
Joseph Panossian for AP on July 12.
And the Hindustan Times on July 12 conveyed a similar account:
Anyway Captain, by your logic, IDF sdoldeirs captured in Israel are kidnapped right? So therefore you must agree that by building as detention centre for “captured” Lebanese in Lebanon, Israel is plannign to kidnap jundred of Lebanese right?
Now Captain, stop being a fucking coward and answer the question:
By what legal authority can the army of one state order the civilians of another sovereign state out of their homes?
Do you have an answer to this? YES OR NO???????
You seem certain. Do you have high level contacts in the Syrian government? The simplest answer is always the real one. Hezbollah are defending Lebanon.
What the fuck has this got to do with the thread Captain? Trying a new tangent are we? Trying to throw up dust to divert the thread?
It’s not working Captain. Sorry.
Actually, given the way Isabel is treating Palestinians in Gaza right now (over 100 dead), I would have to say that Israel is the bottom of the human rights pile, even worse than Syria.
Both countries torture BTW.
All of which is entirely irrelevant and of no consequence to this topic. Israel is not destroying Lebanon for the sake of human rights and democracy is it?
Next……..
Nice example of prescision bombing by Israel.
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/ambulancehit.jpg
Adam – that article you recommended seems to be off the mark in a number of respects. Netanyahu is no longer at the centre of things in Israel. If anything, he would probably prefer a scenario that would allow him to say, “told you so, Kadima made a grave error in quitting Gaza blah blah”. Olmert’s brutality is this campaign is, at least, partly being conditioned by the need to look “tough” and avoid Bibi being given an opportunity to claim the administration is weak. The other thing is that Israelis are averse to a four letter word. For them, the word plan is something to be avoided at all costs. They have got themselves into a real mess and will now try to say it was intended to be this way all along.
Roonaldo,
Don’t discount Netanyahu’s influence in Israel. His part may not be in power, but Netanyahu is a power broker and has enormous influence as a negotiator and poicy setter. He is constantly travelling and spends much time in the US giving directions ot teh lobbyists.
The tough guy theory for Olmert doesn’t wash. He has gone in far too deep to just try and score points back home in terms of security.
you cant be serious. you or one of the pro-israel posters on here have actually stated in defense of israel that they sent around flyers telling residents to get out of their homes whilst they blow them up. if you want to split hairs about the term ‘orders’ go for it, but the point still remains the same.
Yes Captain is a complete deep shit, who says he abhores the killing of civilians, so he just denies it is happenening.
Hey Captain, what do you make of the use of cluster bombs. Forget your fucking ball bearings in missiles, what about these banned things, which are only useful in populated areas?
Israle is giving these people an ultimatum. be gone in half an hor becaue we’re commign back to bomb your house.
Trouble is that Israel is also bombing these peoepl are the leave in their cars.
This is a massacre. A genocide and it’s no surprise that the internaional community is talking about war crimes.
Bring these butchers to trial.
Yes, bring the Hezbollah butchers to trial. Its amazing how the same terms are used to describe Jews in every generation. And it all seems to justified!!
I don’t deny that civilians are being killed. I abhor this. Mistakes get made. This was not a war of Israel’s choosing. You keep forgetting that Israel will have many different contingencies and plan to deal with threats. The fact they were able to respond so quickly is not ipso facto proof that there was some premeditated agenda. It is just fallacious reasoning.
I am not splitting hairs about orders. Israel warns residents for their own safety. This is the problem when you have Islamic terrorits burried in civilian areas. What warnings do Hezbollah give to Israeli residents?
You would criticise Israel if they gave warnings (as you do) or not give warnings and have higher casualties. Either way, you just don’t like Israel taking control of the pathetic terrorists sponsorded by Iran and Syria. The days of pan arab nationalistic fantasies are well and trully over and you should stop crying about it and encourage your peoples to make peace and give their own populations the benefits of democracy and capitalism.
i suppose using cluster bombs wasnt their choosing then?, “level everything so theres no where to hide” hang on what about the hundreds of displaced citizens, using cluster bombs from that high up is a pety method of killing terrorists.
none and i sympathise but even given no warnings very few have died in comparison as opposed to the lebanese who have received warnings and then still cant get away because they get bombed on the way out, not to mention being told essentially that your livelyhood is about to be destroyed.
i couldnt give 2 shits about terrorists (israel or hezbollah) it isnt a damned if they do damned if they dont situation because there is a 3rd option NOT HAVING TO GIVE WARNINGS AND ACTUALLY COMING IN ON THE GROUND AND NOT LEVELING EVERYONES HOUSES AND INFRASTRUCTURE.
what were they again, giving up your dictators and replacing them with America?
having america rape your resources and land?
being essentially another puppet of a goverment (america) that has nothing to do with you?
damn right, everyone should have democracy.
that put aside though LEBANON IS A DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY YOU TWAT, and like it or not hezbollah are a democratic party.