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	<title>Comments on: Shifting sands of Israel/Palestine</title>
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		<title>By: Noru Tsalic</title>
		<link>http://antonyloewenstein.com/2008/11/25/shifting-sands-of-israelpalestine/comment-page-1/#comment-531582</link>
		<dc:creator>Noru Tsalic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Oct 2009 22:23:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://antonyloewenstein.com/?p=7143#comment-531582</guid>
		<description>I stumbled across this collection of rubbish. What a selective and misleading presentation of half-truths!
&quot;A report released in July by a group partly funded by the European Union found that Jews live longer and enjoy lower infant mortality and poverty rates in Israel than Arab citizens.&quot; Wow! And what were the life expectancy, infant mortality and poverty rates of Arabs 60 years ago? What were they 20 years ago? I can also tell you that the life expectancy, infant mortality and poverty rates of Arab citizens in Israel compare favourably – ney, VERY favourably with those prevailing in the neighbouring Arab countries. Check for yourselves. And by the way, a bit of personal experience, of which of course Mr. Loewenstein has not an ounce: in Israeli hospitals, Jewish and Arab Israelis share exactly the same facilities and the same rooms and are treated by the same doctors and nurses, many of whom are Arab themselves.
As an ex-IDF soldier who served for 20 years, including in the West Bank in the midst of intifada, I hereby solemnly swear:

I have never been given an order to shoot an unarmed civilian. I have never heard such an order being given to somebody else. Quite the opposite: the orders we received ALWAYS stressed that civilians must NOT be harmed.
Throughout my military activity, I have never targeted an unarmed civilian. I have never seen any IDF soldier who did. 
Relationships with the civilian population in the West Bank were often (though not always) tense, full of mutual mistrust. Neither myself nor any of the IDF soldiers I saw have ever purposefully mistreated or unnecessarily humiliated Palestinians. Sure, we were soldiers and not social workers. Often, we were concerned with our own security, with the job we have been given and with maintaining our authority in front of people who were constantly testing us and pushing against the limits. But I am proud to say that we have always kept our humanity. Confronted with the need to check that Palestinian civilians did not carry weapons or bombs past check posts IDF brought female soldiers to check Palestinian women. Yes, to spare these civilian women the embarrassment of a male soldier moving an electronic wand along their bodies, we have placed our own 19-year-old female comrades in the harm&#039;s way. Does Mr. Lowenstein know this? Would he even care if he did? 
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I stumbled across this collection of rubbish. What a selective and misleading presentation of half-truths!<br />
&#8220;A report released in July by a group partly funded by the European Union found that Jews live longer and enjoy lower infant mortality and poverty rates in Israel than Arab citizens.&#8221; Wow! And what were the life expectancy, infant mortality and poverty rates of Arabs 60 years ago? What were they 20 years ago? I can also tell you that the life expectancy, infant mortality and poverty rates of Arab citizens in Israel compare favourably – ney, VERY favourably with those prevailing in the neighbouring Arab countries. Check for yourselves. And by the way, a bit of personal experience, of which of course Mr. Loewenstein has not an ounce: in Israeli hospitals, Jewish and Arab Israelis share exactly the same facilities and the same rooms and are treated by the same doctors and nurses, many of whom are Arab themselves.<br />
As an ex-IDF soldier who served for 20 years, including in the West Bank in the midst of intifada, I hereby solemnly swear:</p>
<p>I have never been given an order to shoot an unarmed civilian. I have never heard such an order being given to somebody else. Quite the opposite: the orders we received ALWAYS stressed that civilians must NOT be harmed.<br />
Throughout my military activity, I have never targeted an unarmed civilian. I have never seen any IDF soldier who did.<br />
Relationships with the civilian population in the West Bank were often (though not always) tense, full of mutual mistrust. Neither myself nor any of the IDF soldiers I saw have ever purposefully mistreated or unnecessarily humiliated Palestinians. Sure, we were soldiers and not social workers. Often, we were concerned with our own security, with the job we have been given and with maintaining our authority in front of people who were constantly testing us and pushing against the limits. But I am proud to say that we have always kept our humanity. Confronted with the need to check that Palestinian civilians did not carry weapons or bombs past check posts IDF brought female soldiers to check Palestinian women. Yes, to spare these civilian women the embarrassment of a male soldier moving an electronic wand along their bodies, we have placed our own 19-year-old female comrades in the harm&#8217;s way. Does Mr. Lowenstein know this? Would he even care if he did?</p>
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		<title>By: Vindskupan &#187; Obamas kvarlämnade armé</title>
		<link>http://antonyloewenstein.com/2008/11/25/shifting-sands-of-israelpalestine/comment-page-1/#comment-488878</link>
		<dc:creator>Vindskupan &#187; Obamas kvarlämnade armé</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Dec 2008 16:36:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://antonyloewenstein.com/?p=7143#comment-488878</guid>
		<description>[...] &#8220;Shifting sands of Israel/Palestine&#8221; bloggkommentar av Antony Loewenstein, 25 november [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] &#8220;Shifting sands of Israel/Palestine&#8221; bloggkommentar av Antony Loewenstein, 25 november [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Austin</title>
		<link>http://antonyloewenstein.com/2008/11/25/shifting-sands-of-israelpalestine/comment-page-1/#comment-482422</link>
		<dc:creator>Austin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 23:13:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://antonyloewenstein.com/?p=7143#comment-482422</guid>
		<description>Fantastic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fantastic.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Brook</title>
		<link>http://antonyloewenstein.com/2008/11/25/shifting-sands-of-israelpalestine/comment-page-1/#comment-482059</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Brook</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 05:11:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://antonyloewenstein.com/?p=7143#comment-482059</guid>
		<description>A good, angry article, Antony, and it should provoke some good, angry responses. One thing puzzles me, though. You write of a &quot;group of influential left-oriented Jews&quot; you met in Melbourne last year for the purpose of discussing your ideas. Was the Australian Jewish Democratic Society among them? Or Meretz Australia? Or was it just individuals like myself? A little more precision on your part would help dispel the &quot;loose cannon&quot; reputation you seem to be developing. Loose cannons, as we all know, sometimes hit the target, but sometimes they don&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A good, angry article, Antony, and it should provoke some good, angry responses. One thing puzzles me, though. You write of a &#8220;group of influential left-oriented Jews&#8221; you met in Melbourne last year for the purpose of discussing your ideas. Was the Australian Jewish Democratic Society among them? Or Meretz Australia? Or was it just individuals like myself? A little more precision on your part would help dispel the &#8220;loose cannon&#8221; reputation you seem to be developing. Loose cannons, as we all know, sometimes hit the target, but sometimes they don&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: Bringing the tribe back from moral decay &#124; Antony Loewenstein</title>
		<link>http://antonyloewenstein.com/2008/11/25/shifting-sands-of-israelpalestine/comment-page-1/#comment-482058</link>
		<dc:creator>Bringing the tribe back from moral decay &#124; Antony Loewenstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 05:08:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://antonyloewenstein.com/?p=7143#comment-482058</guid>
		<description>[...] Following my talk last week at Harvard University&#8217;s Kennedy School of Government on Israel/Palestine, leading American Jewish blogger Phil Weiss adds a few reflective comments of his own, especially in relation to convincing like-minded Jews to speak out against Israeli crimes: [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Following my talk last week at Harvard University&#8217;s Kennedy School of Government on Israel/Palestine, leading American Jewish blogger Phil Weiss adds a few reflective comments of his own, especially in relation to convincing like-minded Jews to speak out against Israeli crimes: [...]</p>
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		<title>By: frank</title>
		<link>http://antonyloewenstein.com/2008/11/25/shifting-sands-of-israelpalestine/comment-page-1/#comment-481920</link>
		<dc:creator>frank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Nov 2008 20:37:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://antonyloewenstein.com/?p=7143#comment-481920</guid>
		<description>Hello Richie..
These are the outlines of this Harvard U. Kennedy School of Government:
&quot;A critical examination of the Israel/Palestine conflict from an Australian perspective. How is the conflict reported in Australia? What is the position of successive Australian governments and why? What is the role of the Jewish and Arab communities in the debate? Loewenstein will also discuss the current direction of the conflict itself, not least the growth of a fundamentalist Jewish minority who threaten peace far more than Palestinian militants. What does this mean for the future direction of the Jewish state? With the declining power of the US in world affairs, where does this leave Israel and its supporters?&quot;

Let&#039;s analyze it line by line: &quot;How is the conflict reported in Australia?&quot;

The Austrian Prmime Minister and the majority of the government praised Israel. Antony brings a minority opinion of 1. This peddler of trief tripe writes: &quot;but one Labor backbencher dissented. Julia Irwin could not “congratulate a nation which commits human rights abuses each day and shows blatant disregard for the UN.”

&quot;What is the role of the Jewish and Arab communities in the debate?&quot;

Diplomatic dialogue between the participants to the dispute Jews and Arabs. We Jews call the lands captured following the 6 Day War as &quot;Administered Territories&quot; the Arabs call them &quot;occupied territory.&quot;  Antony calls too emphatically declares them &quot;occupied territory.&quot;  This is trief tripe. 2 Jewish Kingdoms historically ruled over these disputed lands. Never once in all recored history has a Palestinian people ever ruled these lands. The Arab armies that conquored these lands from both the Romans and Christians were not Palestinians. This Arab successful invasion occured around 700 CE. An Arab empire who&#039;s capital was in present day Iraq ruled these lands. Later non Arab Turks conquored these lands and established the Ottoman empire in 1400s. The Sultan was not a Palestinian, there did not exist a people called &quot;Palestinians&quot; during the entire Ottoman reign over the Middle East! Antony&#039;s Arabist declarations as if they were undoubtably true, that&#039;s really trief tribe!

Richie its obvious to me that either you don&#039;t know how to read beyond what you see in newspapers and reactionary blogs like this. Please stop pretending that your knowledable on this subject because every word you write only convicts you for being an utter fool.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello Richie..<br />
These are the outlines of this Harvard U. Kennedy School of Government:<br />
&#8220;A critical examination of the Israel/Palestine conflict from an Australian perspective. How is the conflict reported in Australia? What is the position of successive Australian governments and why? What is the role of the Jewish and Arab communities in the debate? Loewenstein will also discuss the current direction of the conflict itself, not least the growth of a fundamentalist Jewish minority who threaten peace far more than Palestinian militants. What does this mean for the future direction of the Jewish state? With the declining power of the US in world affairs, where does this leave Israel and its supporters?&#8221;</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s analyze it line by line: &#8220;How is the conflict reported in Australia?&#8221;</p>
<p>The Austrian Prmime Minister and the majority of the government praised Israel. Antony brings a minority opinion of 1. This peddler of trief tripe writes: &#8220;but one Labor backbencher dissented. Julia Irwin could not “congratulate a nation which commits human rights abuses each day and shows blatant disregard for the UN.”</p>
<p>&#8220;What is the role of the Jewish and Arab communities in the debate?&#8221;</p>
<p>Diplomatic dialogue between the participants to the dispute Jews and Arabs. We Jews call the lands captured following the 6 Day War as &#8220;Administered Territories&#8221; the Arabs call them &#8220;occupied territory.&#8221;  Antony calls too emphatically declares them &#8220;occupied territory.&#8221;  This is trief tripe. 2 Jewish Kingdoms historically ruled over these disputed lands. Never once in all recored history has a Palestinian people ever ruled these lands. The Arab armies that conquored these lands from both the Romans and Christians were not Palestinians. This Arab successful invasion occured around 700 CE. An Arab empire who&#8217;s capital was in present day Iraq ruled these lands. Later non Arab Turks conquored these lands and established the Ottoman empire in 1400s. The Sultan was not a Palestinian, there did not exist a people called &#8220;Palestinians&#8221; during the entire Ottoman reign over the Middle East! Antony&#8217;s Arabist declarations as if they were undoubtably true, that&#8217;s really trief tribe!</p>
<p>Richie its obvious to me that either you don&#8217;t know how to read beyond what you see in newspapers and reactionary blogs like this. Please stop pretending that your knowledable on this subject because every word you write only convicts you for being an utter fool.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard</title>
		<link>http://antonyloewenstein.com/2008/11/25/shifting-sands-of-israelpalestine/comment-page-1/#comment-481750</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Nov 2008 10:05:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://antonyloewenstein.com/?p=7143#comment-481750</guid>
		<description>Hello Frankie..
Please point to ONE (1) incorrect statement (tripe??) that we can all share.. Go on, don&#039;t be selfish.
Problem is, as real history shows, the might and the fault always has been/is pretty much all on one side.. 
That is why the situation is as it is now..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello Frankie..<br />
Please point to ONE (1) incorrect statement (tripe??) that we can all share.. Go on, don&#8217;t be selfish.<br />
Problem is, as real history shows, the might and the fault always has been/is pretty much all on one side..<br />
That is why the situation is as it is now..</p>
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		<title>By: frank</title>
		<link>http://antonyloewenstein.com/2008/11/25/shifting-sands-of-israelpalestine/comment-page-1/#comment-480008</link>
		<dc:creator>frank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Nov 2008 23:18:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://antonyloewenstein.com/?p=7143#comment-480008</guid>
		<description>Mr reactionary writes/preaches/proclaims etc  &quot;uncritical support of the Jewish state.&quot;

This noise only reveals the barking of a dog. This tripe blog as a rule give &quot;uncritical support of the so called Palestinian cause&quot;.  Reading this unJews&#039; opinions a person might think that Arabs never even fart.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr reactionary writes/preaches/proclaims etc  &#8220;uncritical support of the Jewish state.&#8221;</p>
<p>This noise only reveals the barking of a dog. This tripe blog as a rule give &#8220;uncritical support of the so called Palestinian cause&#8221;.  Reading this unJews&#8217; opinions a person might think that Arabs never even fart.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Birch</title>
		<link>http://antonyloewenstein.com/2008/11/25/shifting-sands-of-israelpalestine/comment-page-1/#comment-479990</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Birch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Nov 2008 21:41:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://antonyloewenstein.com/?p=7143#comment-479990</guid>
		<description>Totally agree with your assessment.  Keep up the good work, antony.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Totally agree with your assessment.  Keep up the good work, antony.</p>
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		<title>By: Fema Mame</title>
		<link>http://antonyloewenstein.com/2008/11/25/shifting-sands-of-israelpalestine/comment-page-1/#comment-479942</link>
		<dc:creator>Fema Mame</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Nov 2008 15:56:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://antonyloewenstein.com/?p=7143#comment-479942</guid>
		<description>Mr Yisrael Medad incorrectly claims that &quot;all the humanitarian elements of that Convention&quot; (the fourth geneva convention) are applied by Israel.   

The origin of this claim started with the Attorney General Meir Shamgar who constructed the legal argument.   But Shamgar always fell short of stating which ones of the provisions are &quot;humanitarian&quot; and of course Israel finds itself at odds wit the Red Corss (the guardian of the Fourth Geneva Conventions) which regards all of the items as humanitarian. 

Shamgar also made two legal &quot;innovations&quot; although he allowed the Palestinians to appeal to the Supreme Court, it neglected their status as citizens.   So they would get the (selective) benefits of the Fourth Geneva Conventions, but would not get the rights of citizens, which made it easy to grab vast swabs of land from them.

The facts on the ground are clearly different than the actual Geneva convention text:

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/92.htm

Pretty much every guarantee from Article 3 has been violated by Israel during its occupation of the West Bank.  

The fact that Palestinians can appeal to the Supreme Court has given people the illusion that &quot;the Palestinian rights have been safeguarded and that the occupation was legal&quot;.

This particular myth is discussed in detail in Jonathan Cooks&#039; &quot;Disappearing Palestine&quot; book and contains both references to the policy making and the Knesset resolutions from 1967.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr Yisrael Medad incorrectly claims that &#8220;all the humanitarian elements of that Convention&#8221; (the fourth geneva convention) are applied by Israel.   </p>
<p>The origin of this claim started with the Attorney General Meir Shamgar who constructed the legal argument.   But Shamgar always fell short of stating which ones of the provisions are &#8220;humanitarian&#8221; and of course Israel finds itself at odds wit the Red Corss (the guardian of the Fourth Geneva Conventions) which regards all of the items as humanitarian. </p>
<p>Shamgar also made two legal &#8220;innovations&#8221; although he allowed the Palestinians to appeal to the Supreme Court, it neglected their status as citizens.   So they would get the (selective) benefits of the Fourth Geneva Conventions, but would not get the rights of citizens, which made it easy to grab vast swabs of land from them.</p>
<p>The facts on the ground are clearly different than the actual Geneva convention text:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/92.htm" rel="nofollow" onclick="pageTracker._trackPageview('/outgoing/www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/92.htm?referer=');">http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/92.htm</a></p>
<p>Pretty much every guarantee from Article 3 has been violated by Israel during its occupation of the West Bank.  </p>
<p>The fact that Palestinians can appeal to the Supreme Court has given people the illusion that &#8220;the Palestinian rights have been safeguarded and that the occupation was legal&#8221;.</p>
<p>This particular myth is discussed in detail in Jonathan Cooks&#8217; &#8220;Disappearing Palestine&#8221; book and contains both references to the policy making and the Knesset resolutions from 1967.</p>
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