Ahh - you’re such a dill, Ibrahim. What “most”? I haven’t got any stats on it, so I wouldn’t know about the numbers (you seem to know them however). (Incidentally, you should have been able to tell from previous posts by me - which you have responded to - that I’m no fan of Saudi law on dress-codes and freedom of movement. (Not surprising I suppose, given that it seems that you seem to go completely nuts whenever you see the words “muslim” or “islam”. Red rag to a bull.)

“I agree the poor treatment of women by what I should probably have called fundamentalist Islam (throughout most of the ME) is much less likely to happen in Western states, given the fact that we have laws that aren’t drawn from the Koran.”

It’s not a simple matter of a division between The Secular West and The Islamic Rest. It’s a question of how the Qur’an is interpreted and what the dominant Islamic jurisprudential school is in a particular country. Saudi Arabia, for example, now dominated by Wahabbism, is awful. The pragmatic, multifaceted and highly flexible general approach to Islam in Indonesia on the other hand, produces entirely different results. They claim to be drawing on the Qur’an, but their interpretation is entirely different to what Saudi authorities say when they claim to be drawing on the Qur’an. (In fact, the Minangkabau cultural grouping in Indonesia – who are Muslim – have a, wait for it, matriarchally structured society!) In any case, I think you’ll find that the poor treatment of women in any given country has more to do with cultural norms than on this or that book.

I am impressed. It was a good eye-opening read, despite your valid criticisms.

In relation to the “place” of Muslim women in Muslim sub-communities that I ‘hang around’, the sort of oppression one reads about, the behaviour you alluded to, etc., just doesn’t exist.

The behaviour I was talking about is drawn from my experience with first-generation Australian-Muslims in Melbourne. I agree the poor treatment of women by what I should probably have called fundamentalist Islam (throughout most of the ME) is much less likely to happen in Western states, given the fact that we have laws that aren’t drawn from the Koran.

When you go on about the evils that Islam does, it just seems utterly alien to me because your words are so disconnected from lived experience.

As Antony rather condescendingly pointed out (and does at every opportunity he gets), that is for the most part, correct. It was academic rather than personal.

Antony- don’t normally see you post twice, unless you have to defend your racist attitudes towards Asians, sorry bill leak’s attitudes. Of course, you have ample time to attack my credentials (unlike yourself, I never claimed to have any, so your questions are irrelevant).

Why is that? Complete ignorance? Denial? Or is he a racist who can’t handle the truth?

I assume you’re talking about the book by Manji. Yes. It’s certainly provocative and not a bad read overall. More ‘heart than head’, which that could be a desirable thing, depending on who’s doing the reading. I agree with the general thrust of some of her concerns (e.g. the confusion of Saudi Arabian cultural norms with Islam itself - often the root of a number of other problems such as crypto-theocratic laws that oppress women in SA), although she certainly over-generalises a lot too which tends to undermine her arguments.

In relation to the “place” of Muslim women in Muslim sub-communities that I ‘hang around’, the sort of oppression one reads about, the behaviour you alluded to, etc., just doesn’t exist. When you go on about the evils that Islam does, it just seems utterly alien to me because your words are so disconnected from lived experience. Sure, things are probably different in other places in the world, but that’s precisely my point.

Ive never been to a Muslim country myself although I have known Muslims personally — and they happen to be good people. But sometimes I wonder about the nature of Islam as a religion itslef, especially when you have “moderates” like the Mufti of Australia (the leader of Australia’s Muslims and head of the Federal Islamic council) or the former Prime Minister of Maylasia make Nazi like Goebellesque speeches.

Sometimes I wonder why the vast majority of todays conflicts and wars involve muslims or the fact that “honor killings” are rife and legally accepted in the Islamic world or that almost every Islamic country has a “religious police” or that In Australia itself police are asked to be culurally sensitive to Muslim men who beat their wives…need I go on?

What exactly are you trying to excuse, you sanctimonious hypocrite who purports to be a “dissident” who speaks out for human rights?

“A woman is worth one-half a man”

(I suppose it’s still better than 1/14th of an elephant.)

“Don’t pray if you are drunk, dirty, or have touched a woman lately.”

“A man cannot treat his wives fairly.”

“When it’s time to pray and you have just used the toilet or touched a woman, be sure to wash up. If you can’t find any water, just rub some dirt on yourself.”

“Believing women must lower their gaze and be modest, cover themselves with veils, and not reveal themselves except to their husbands, relatives, children, and slaves.”

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/women/long.html

Have you read The Trouble with Islam, Ed? Just curious.

Well, blow me down. Racist religious bigots can swear in English too!

As to why “They” avoid eye contact:

1. I don’t go around eye-balling every woman who walks down the street. Maybe sexual perverts do, but I don’t. I’ll leave it to you to figure out why you do.

2. I haven’t noticed that “They” do avoid eye contact any more or less than anyone else. I must admit, however, that I haven’t done any serious empirical eye-ball research. When are you publishing your stats?

“Islam all-to-often involves suppressing women and would see any eye contact as sinful”

Where is this guy Islam? He seems to do a lot of suppressing. I would have thought it was men who did the suppressing rather than a mutlifaceted, constantly reinterpreted set of ideas.

“Attacking Islam, politically incorrect! Too bloody bad.”

Tallyho chaps!

You turned this:

Interaction? Anyone else ever had Muslim women try and ask you a question- in my experience they will avoid eye contact, by actually looking away (in my imperialist western culture- that is disrespectful). Why do you think some Muslim women do that Ed?

Into This:

anthony said…
“Interaction? Anyone else ever had Muslim women try and ask you a question”

I don’t know. I’d have to ask them.

I didn’t ask why women ask questions you fucking idiot, I asked why they avoid all eye contact while they do it. I’ll answer for you- because Islam all-to-often involves suppressing women and would see any eye contact as sinful. Oh no! Attacking Islam, politically incorrect! Too bloody bad.